Wayne: Hey, everybody. Welcome back. So glad you're with us. This week is special for me because we have a very special guest–one of my favorite people on the planet for almost 29 years now! I want to introduce you to my favorite (and only) daughter, Karen Baker, who is a newly minted psychotherapist herself.

Today we're going to talk about infidelity from a different perspective: what to tell the kids, what not to tell the kids, what Karen's journey has been like, and how we have dealt with some of our more challenging father/daughter conversations. I'm looking forward to talking with you about how we've navigated this road together, especially in the last 7 or 8 years.

Karen: Where do we even start in this conversation? And I think that feeling parallels what a lot of parents are feeling. Where do we even start? Where do I start with my own kids? Where do I start with my partner when they're going through infidelity?

Wayne: We can talk about the things that have worked for us, the things that are working for us, the things that are challenging–things that every couple, every family, every father/daughter, mother/son, father/son, mother/daughter situation is unique, just like grief is different for everyone. Through a lot of this, we can paint a broad brush stroke about what tends to work, realizing that every situation is unique and different.

Karen, when you found out that I (your dad) had been unfaithful, even though it has been, you know, many years since that day, what was it like for you?

Karen: I would probably say like several years later when I was moving to Arizona, you and I were on a road trip together as I was moving there. On the road trip, something came up about your infidelity, and you asked me, "Did you know?" And I was like, "Yeah, Charlie told me. Then you gave me the whole story."

There are definitely parts of myself that want to say, "Dad, how could you?" But then the vast majority of me, because of the way you parented me, had a lot of compassion and understanding for what was going on in your world, what was going on in mom's world, and what was going on in your marriage at the time. I think that was a benefit of being older when it happened. I was able to hold more space for the complexity of the situation, instead of it just being like, oh, my dad cheated on my mom before I was born.

Wayne: Well, there are a couple of things that you said that come up for me. First, I want to go back to this part of you that says, "Dad, how could you?" I want to speak to that part, because remember, one of the things that is very present and very true for us is that every feeling is welcome–even the messy, especially the messy.

Karen: I think this part informs what I do as a therapist. I'm very aware of intergenerational trauma, the epigenetics (how the expression of our genes is affected by environmental distress and behavioral factors). So, it's wanting to understand what that did to Mom so I can understand what that might have done to me since I was still in utero.

There are things that occur in my life where I'm curious about how the expression of my genes has been altered, like, is this mine? Is my health compromised because of something my mom or grandma went through? It's a natural curiosity, even though I try not to over intellectualize and categorize everything. For me, that is the frustration or added stress that I feel as an adult at this stage of my life. Am I more anxious or do I struggle with a certain other thing because the response was activated in my DNA? Where my anxiety (or whatever else) originated from, I might never know, but just sitting with the anxiety is the important thing.

Wayne: There wasn't a day that went by that I didn't think about those very things. There was a lot of blame–self-blame–that I caused certain situations or anxiety. I have felt a lot of condemnation in the past, and I didn't know what I didn't know. In the last 20 years as a therapist, I've learned about interpersonal neurobiology and intrauterine development, even development throughout our lifespan, and how all that can be altered.

Karen: Can I just say what comes up for me when you say that? It's another part of why I don't hold condemnation for you–I know you. I know your heart. It's hard for any kid to realize that their parents aren't superheroes.

When I had my first panic attack in middle school after going to the Holocaust Museum in Houston, I came home and sat down with you. The panic was coming up, the anxiety was right there. I remember asking, "Could something like this ever happen again?" And you said, "I don't know." My world fell apart because my dad, my mom, the people who are supposed to take care of me and protect me couldn't insure this. No kid ever wants to face that.

When you talk about this condemnation for yourself, self-blame or things like that, you do so in a way that does not put it on me. And I think that was how I was able to have my own experience around the infidelity and divorce. You held your stuff, and you created space for me instead of putting it, or even part of it, on me. Does that make sense?

Wayne: Yeah. It does. I have a world of regret about what I did and the impact it had on your mom, your brother, you, and others in our community.

To have your own experience and for us to be able to talk about it, that is music to my ears. Maybe one day, the four of us will sit down and talk about this together.

I think the thing for me is that in the couples work that I've done for the last 20 years, this is where it is at. Having a conversation about your own experiences, even if you don't know how it's going to end or even where it's headed, is healthy. We need to be present with what is right here in this moment.

You know, as the tears form in your eyes and in mine, we're just going to be here, we're going to breathe, and we're going to talk. And that's the thing that I want people to realize more than anything else: This is where growth happens. You and I, even in this moment, are growing.

Karen: On that topic of difficult conversations, and a conversation I've had with my own clients, it's about sitting in the discomfort. Choosing to have the uncomfortable conversation is actively choosing the relationship, right?

Wayne: Yeah. Say that again. That's big.

Karen: Choosing to have the uncomfortable conversation is actively choosing the relationship. For somebody like myself who really likes control, someone who likes to have all of the information around stuff, it's really challenging for me to walk into a conversation where I don't have all of the facts in front of me. Like you were saying, just being present and breathing through the experience is what matters most. I know from my experience that was what you did for me throughout childhood, even while discovering the infidelity and the divorce. It was never my responsibility to initiate the conversation, you did that for me.

Wayne: So, you felt like I pursued you?

Karen: Yes! I don't know if you remember this but I might have been in middle school and you asked me one day, "Is there anything I can do to be a better dad?" Do you remember this? And I said, "Maybe don't wear your pajamas around the house?"

Wayne: Oh, yeah! I asked you a different question first. I think I was trying to stack the deck. I first asked, "What are the three things you like about having me as a dad?" You told me our father/daughter dates, especially the dads and donuts event at school, and I don't remember the other answers. But one thing is for sure, I never wore my pajamas around the house anymore!

Karen: Let's go back to that comment, it was never my responsibility to initiate a conversation. You pursued me, regularly, and you do so to this day. This includes the divorce conversations. You specifically asked me how I'm doing and repeatedly apologized. On one hand, I appreciated it, and on the other hand, I felt discomfort with the vulnerability. Sometimes, I just said, "Okay, yeah, that's fine. I forgive you." It's the whole experience of you always taking the responsibility that made the lasting impression.

So, what kind of guidelines would you give to parents around the topic of disclosure for different age groups? What is the best thing to share? When to share? How much is too much? What is not enough? I think that would be really helpful for a lot of parents.

Wayne: I tend to start off very simple if they're little, say preschool or even early elementary. I would say they don't need to know much at all. Other than "Mom and Dad are struggling" and "we still love each other." (If that's true.) They can be told you are working on the marriage through a professional therapist (if that's true) and that you both love them very, very much and want to help them feel safe. They don't need a lot of information. It's going to be way over their head anyway.

And then as they get into upper elementary, they may have questions because they've seen or heard something. Where there is a lot of yelling or fighting, it's important for the kids to know it's not their fault. Here's something else to try. If your kid asks a question, that opens the door for you to answer and then ask them a question. See if you can find out what they know or what they really want or need to know. Because sometimes we can ask a question to find out what they know and what are they really asking for before we start to give them too much information that they're not ready for.

Karen: The example that I'm thinking of is, "Why were you and mommy yelling?" I don't necessarily know what question would follow. Maybe, "What did you hear?" "What makes you ask?" "Did that make you feel afraid?"

This is so interesting to me personally because I never saw you and Mom argue a lot. And I think that was a great thing in some areas, but also, I never got any education around what healthy fighting looks like. This led me to some really unsafe relationships. And that's not a broad generalization to say that if you don't fight and repair well in front of your kids that this is going to happen. That is not at all what I'm saying.

Something I've heard you say before is, "You can fight and you can learn to fight well." I think that's really, really important. And of course, we're talking about something different around children and having a knock-down-drag-out in front of your children isn't appropriate. But disagreements happen, and coming back together, showing your children after x, y, z happened that we both learned this is important. An apology to your partner for what was said is important, but it's even more important to set that example for your children.

Wayne: Are you saying to do that in front of the kids?

Karen: Yes. Yep. Absolutely. An apology should take place in the setting where the hurt occurred.

We've all had these family dinners where a snide comment was made between two people and everyone's forks froze for a second. It's going back to that and taking accountability, apologizing so everyone who was there knows that we are good here and the relationship is fine.

Wayne: So, in the context of infidelity moving through the ages of your kids. When they get to junior high and high school where the kids are completely aware of what's going on, it's important to note that these kids are still scared. They are hurting and many times, they are alone. And that's where I think it's important to get them with a therapist, even if they can't afford it but once a week, once a month, or some other level of support within their school or church, where they can talk freely about their fears, what they're hearing and that they are not to be blamed. It's not just about the two of you. You need to repair things with your kids.

Karen: I want to make sure that we're saying the same thing, that as kids learn about what's going on, regardless of stage of development, it's no longer just about Mom and Dad. It's about the children as well. And just to be sure I'm understanding, are you saying that the children's experience comes above the parents?

Wayne: Yeah, that's a good question. It's both/and. The repair of the relationship is important. If we don't have any other choice, we still have the choice about how we respond or react. I believe that. And we can grow that muscle on how to respond better. As kids get older, they may know more. If they haven't heard from others, if they didn't discover it on their own, they may need to be told what is happening, 10,000ft view only. They don't need the nitty gritty on what happened.

Kids need to be encouraged to come to their parents with their questions. I say this because I don't want those kids to be alone. That's huge for me. Parents should sit and listen and ask reflecting questions to make sure they understand what's going on with their kid. Here's a tip parents can try. After listening to them share their feelings about Mom and Dad's situation, say, "I told myself a story based on what you said, and this is what I have playing out in my mind. Can you check my interpretation?

And just like with Amy and I, we were like yeah, it's not time. This didn't happen to them or because of them. At one point, Amy said lovingly, "It's really none of their business." And that is a way to respond to it as well. These challenging conversations with your spouse are very important.

Karen: In having these challenging conversations, like you and I had in the past as father/daughter, you realize you are only able to sit with as much discomfort with your son or daughter as you can sit with yourself.

I love Brené Brown's example about everyone rushing in to turn the lights on when your kids are on the other side of the door and crying after their first heartbreak. When your kid goes through their first heartbreak, the parent's heart breaks twice as much.

And when you see this being that you love more than anything in the entire world crying on the other side of the door, you want to rush in, turn all of the lights on, pick them up, wipe them off, and tell them everything's going to be okay. But that's not usually helpful. Sometimes it can be, but most of the time it's not.

Wayne: It is absolutely well-intentioned actions, but please say more about why it's not.

Karen: Yeah. It's because it's not sitting with the hurt. It's not sitting with the pain. And to the original point that I was making, I believe that we're only capable of sitting with as much discomfort with others as we are able to sit with our own discomfort. In other words, if I can't sit with somebody else in their grief as a therapist or as a friend, that's a sure indication that I can't sit with my own pain either.

And I think again back to how you and Mom parented and did y'all's work. You were able to sit with me and my hurt. I mean, I'm a prime example of this being a better strategy for the children. Recently, I was with Mom after I had gone through yet another breakup. We were sitting in the car about to go into the grocery store when she asked me a question. It triggered something in me, and I went off, not necessarily on her, but at the universe, the world, the dating culture, my disappointment, my heartbreak, my anger–all of these things.

And then, I finally settled down. Mom said, "I'm really sorry, Karen. I need to make this Amazon return, then we can just go home and I'll get my groceries tomorrow." That was all that I needed in that moment. She could have said, "Oh, Karen, you'll find Mr. Perfect. This guy is not worth your time, blah blah blah". She could have said all of these things to give it a fake silver lining, to make it feel better. But the thing I needed in that moment was for my mom to just say I'm really sorry.

It comes back to sitting with discomfort or grief, for yourself but also for others. Grief is so complex, and because of my own grief, I've been able to love my clients, friends, and family more deeply.

Wayne: Sitting with that discomfort and that grief takes time. Doing your own work takes time. To your point, yeah, it's important to let your kids have their feelings: fear, anger, sadness, terror, rage, let them have all those feelings.

Karen: I could talk ad nauseam about the feelings in and of themselves, especially for children, and how much the emotion of anger is misunderstood.

Wayne: We might do this again. I think the last and best reminder here is that even older high school and college kids need to be cared for. They might not need to know all the details, but they do need to know something. You know in our family's case, Karen, I wanted to tell you and Charlie and had planned on it even before Amy and I went different directions. Because there's a lot of my story that's very public, I wanted you both to hear it from me first.

You and Charlie were surprised and both had very different reactions to the news. You were kind of in shock I would say. The broad brush stroke explanation is that Charlie was very angry for a few days. And, not tooting my horn, but because I pressed into both of you through visits and driving you places. That had to have helped.

You're smirking, Karen. I'm sure there are stories that you could tell! But it's the pressing in and, and doing that again and again. I don't want to say I did it perfectly, but I stayed close to the kids. I didn't shy away from the hard conversations.

I hope to never just turn on the lights and smooth things over, because that was done to me for so much of my life. I'm determined not to repeat that. I'm thinking about a couple different couples that I worked with. One ended in divorce. One did not. The biggest heartbreak is that at least one of the children has been severely severed from the Dad. My heart breaks for him, and my heart breaks for his daughter. There are people smoothing things over for this girl, and the dad can't or won't sit with the pain with her. He won't let her have her feelings of fear and terror and rage.

Parents, you've got to sit with the pain your children are feeling. You might have to do it more than once! So what's coming up for you? I see the tears.

Karen: I mean, I think about my relationship with my dad. That is a really, really great one. We've put a lot of effort into our relationship in order to have a good one. When I hear other people share that they don't or didn't have that type of support from their parents, my heart breaks.

I feel like sharing some of my parents with them because they're great. But also, they're mine. And then also, for this dad who isn't capable or doesn't believe that he is capable, it makes me feel a little bit sorry for him that he's not going to be able to have that relationship with his kid.

It's heartbreaking. It's really, really sad to see cases like this when I know and believe that there is a possibility for transformation of relationships.

Wayne: As you said that, I was thinking about how parents are our primary teachers on how to do relationships. I talk with folks all the time about how affairs and divorce happen most often because of conflict avoidance.

Learning how to address repair needs; that's what I love. This could be a shameless plug for EMS or the EMS Online course. We can make progress when we begin to talk about how to handle conflict well. Even in my case, I'm still learning how to do that better and better all the time.

Karen: What else comes up for me around this is how do you start if there is a desire to work on it? One of the greatest things that a friend told me when I was really grieving was, "I wish I could take the pain away. I know that I can't." And that was it. It was the acknowledgment that she wanted to help, but she knew that she couldn't. I think that sometimes this is the place to start.

Wayne: It's really hard, as someone who has created a lot of pain, to be able to say that I created this pain, and I wish I could stop it. I wish I could take it away. "Had I known," I hear this from a lot of wayward spouses, both men and women, that they had no idea the devastation that their choices would have caused their loved ones. Now that they know, they wish they could take it away.

Having sat with couples for 20 years now, I'm painfully aware of the energy, the cost, and the pain and the grief, fear, and rage cost people. It's incredibly hard and takes incredible courage to try to work things out. Because the world says, "Just move on. Once a cheater, always a cheater." We know that is not true, by the way. I know the pain is great, but I want to say, "Don't give up. Keep learning. Keep growing. Keep trying. And when you mess up, learn how to make a good repair."

I'd like to say to every one of us, because we will inevitably hurt other people, both intentionally and unintentionally, "Learn how to make a good repair. I think that's where the learning for ourselves happens. If you can learn to make a repair authentically, to not sink back down into shame and despair and guilt, you'll make progress.

To say, "I'm never going to learn or grow. Everyone else is at fault" would be victim thinking. Every time you mess up, you make it right by sitting there with your pain. Nobody does this perfectly. Nobody. Not to be grim about it, but most people are trying so hard, and they have no idea how long it is going to take. As we often say, it takes as long as it takes. So, learn to repair. Learn to listen. Learn to put your own agenda aside. You're going to get to speak for all of those parts of you ultimately.

Karen: And so, what would you say to children whose parents are working through this?

Wayne: No, that's a good question. I would say to the kids, "I am so sorry. Your feelings matter. And I hope that your parents can sit with you and your pain at least a little while. I hope one or both parents gets better and better at listening to and feeling your pain. And if they can't, I hope that you have a good friend or close family member who can do this for you. Don't forget about your guidance counselor at school or youth pastor at church. That would be somebody who could listen to you and remind you that your feelings matter. You matter."